hey this is for us religous people

by Jtull 2009-03-29, 18:45

hey lately I have being thing thinking about what has gone on in my life. ( yet again due to my huge amount of spare time) and I came to think about what things have happened that god has done and the likelihood of them happening naturally is very slim. so if you want you can give examples of what god has done for you.

( if you are not religious or are of different religion than others you are not to turn this into a debate. this is for Christians only sorry to be exclusive but I dont want this turning into a blood bath.)

by Shemuel 2009-03-29, 19:27

My life has gone fairly normal. I don't think it is God's intent is to show himself to us unless he has a special purpose (ie. prophet duty)

by Earthdeath 2009-03-29, 19:30

Just so you all know, i dont want this to turn into another religious debate as well.So any Atheist/other than Christian posts will be deleted.

by me naam is m 2009-03-29, 20:05

the thing is, what is god, and what is nature? wasn't god the first one ever to think of and therefore create the concept 'nature'? isn't god therefore the same thing as nature?

by Philly Homer 2009-03-29, 20:10

me naam is m wrote:the thing is, what is god, and what is nature?
wasn't god the first one ever to think of and therefore create the
concept 'nature'? isn't god therefore the same thing as nature?

Twisted logic.

And as of now, I take more of a deistic view of God. As in the Watchmaker view.

by me naam is m 2009-03-29, 20:14

explain to me why it is twisted logic, alka.

by Philly Homer 2009-03-29, 20:19

Take for example the person that invented the concept of mathematics. Does that person = mathematics? Certainly not. God is just God. "I am who am," if you will.

by Jtull 2009-03-29, 20:22

me nam is m. what you are bringing to this thread is a debate that is not what its for.

and I think god is very active in peoples lives I my self have seen it. and had it happen to me.

by me naam is m 2009-03-29, 20:40

[ironic grammar nazism]
"I am who am"
it's either "I am who is" or "I am that I am", but not "I am who am". besides, the original Hebrew is best translated as "I shall be that shall be"
[/ironic grammar nazism]

anyway.

Is the person who invented the concept of mathematics (a) god? did he create mathematics? no, he did not, he merely defined it, nor is he a god.

what i'm trying to explain is that in my view god is not some guy with a long white beard up there who manipulates things on earth by a simple click of his fingers, but she or he "Is who is"; all that is. How can you define the concept of god on only the bases of what you see? The only logical conclusion that i can see is that that concept comprises all those bases, EG, all that is.

EDIT: jtull, i'm not atheistic. as for discussion, I'm merely explaining that i cannot say what god has done for me what couldn't have happened naturally, because i do not discern these two instances separately.

by **Thingy** 2009-03-29, 20:44

me naam is m wrote:[ironic grammar nazism]
"I am who am"
it's either "I am who is" or "I am that I am", but not "I am who am". besides, the original Hebrew is best translated as "I shall be that shall be"
[/ironic grammar nazism]

anyway.

Is the person who invented the concept of mathematics (a) god? did he create mathematics? no, he did not, he merely defined it, nor is he a god.

what i'm trying to explain is that in my view god is not some guy with a long white beard up there who manipulates things on earth by a simple click of his fingers, but she or he "Is who is"; all that is. How can you define the concept of god on only the bases of what you see? The only logical conclusion that i can see is that that concept comprises all those bases, EG, all that is.

EDIT: jtull, i'm not atheistic. as for discussion, I'm merely explaining that i cannot say what god has done for me what couldn't have happened naturally, because i do not discern these two instances separately.

Do you need glasses or something? read the first post, NO DEBATE. If you want that, create a debate topic

by Philly Homer 2009-03-29, 20:50

me naam is m wrote:[ironic grammar nazism]
"I am who am"
it's either "I am who is" or "I am that I am", but not "I am who am". besides, the original Hebrew is best translated as "I shall be that shall be"
[/ironic grammar nazism]

And you really expect me to be able to read Hebrew? My version of the Bible translates it as "I am who am"and the Catholic school I go to reinforces this.

And just so that this post has at least some relevance to the topic at hand, I'm going to agree with MNIM here. Most, if not all, occurrences in my life are probably products of correct conditions allowing for certain things to happen, and I'm sure that they happen to other people as well.

by Jtull 2009-03-29, 20:53

both of you take this debate else where.

by **Thingy** 2009-03-29, 20:55

I dont think god ''makes anything''. and i dont understand the logic behind saying that god makes everything, but when there's a hurricane or a war or whatever, he didnt have anything at all to do with it. So i choose to believe that everything good and bad that happens to me is because of something i or someone else has done

by Earthdeath 2009-03-29, 20:56

Don't start trying to convert him anyone, or this will, be locked.

by me naam is m 2009-03-29, 20:58

Jtull wrote:( if you are not religious or are of different religion than others you are not to turn this into a debate. this is for Christians only sorry to be exclusive but I dont want this turning into a blood bath.)

Thingy wrote:
me naam is m wrote:EDIT: jtull, i'm not atheistic. as for discussion, I'm merely explaining that i cannot say what god has done for me what couldn't have happened naturally, because i do not discern these two instances separately.

Do you need glasses or something? read the first post, NO DEBATE. If you want that, create a debate topic

Your reading abilities are even worse than mine. I am Christian.

Jay! Alka agrees! ...I guess.

@ED: not converting anyone. notice the I-s when i explain my views, implying that people do not have to agree with me.

@Thingy: so, you're at the "old guy with beard" concept?
Anyway, i can't help but think that people who think that god is only supposed to do good things as people who simplify things. why would god try to be good to us? think, we humans have proved over and over again that we're not really worth saving. It's the core of the christian system, or at least i believe so, to prove that we are worth saving.

In a way, of ypu just call it god, i contribute all things, good and bad to 'god'. for an example, crashing into the side of a rolling dump truck at 60, but also my good health, even after aforementioned incident.

by Jtull 2009-03-29, 21:02

do I have to ask ed to delete posts made by you on this topic. you are not being at all constructive.

by me naam is m 2009-03-29, 21:08

Jtull, i was still writing. please be patient. besides, then WHAT do you view as constructive?

by Stryker 2009-03-29, 21:11

so if you want you can give examples of what god has done for you.

I don't understand what you are asking. Do you mean how someone's life has gone or specific acts that God has performed?

by me naam is m 2009-03-29, 21:13

that's exactly the problem i've been trying to point out, although in a lot more words.

by Jtull 2009-03-29, 21:34

very well I should give you a example of one of the things I was thinking about you cant go killing me and telling me I messed up again.

on a youth camp I asked god to give me some good friends. the next day I meet two people under a trampoline who have since become some of my closest friends. I would never have met them if I had not stopped to pray out where the trampolines were and one of the people had not pulled there jersy down underthe trampoline with them. I can not see this as a mere coincidence and the people I met under there agree that our meeting was because of god.

also I god a word from god to give to my one of my youth pasters. it turns out it was said to her 3 times before hand that I never knew about and she hadent really told anyone about.

need more examples?

by Stryker 2009-03-29, 21:41

Well the example you gave ended with a positive result but are you also allowing negative events?

by Jtull 2009-03-29, 23:41

well all things that are of god are good. god can not do evil things but he can test us. I my self have had my faith tested and I admit I have failed sometimes.

by Quantum 75 2009-03-30, 04:25

(Side note to an earlier translation thingy, I saw it as "I am who I am.")
I believe God exists, wether we believe in him or not, I do, I'm Christan.

In the state of believing, everyone needs something to believe in to make life possible, otherwise it is harder to understand and withstand.
In the state of who is God, God is really what we see, events that happen to us are tests, wether he made them or not, of all of our strengths, God gave us free will, he doesn't force anything on us, we do it ourselves, which means war, death, etc. He does however protect us in some-most cases, and tests faith sometimes too.

by Stryker 2009-03-30, 19:16

well in that case, I'll conclude my story by saying God "tested" me too far and i now have reached the greatest clarity in life i could have ever imagined.

edit: and just because i dont want to make a thread asking one question; what is the purpose of the affiliates section on the portal section of the website

by Jtull 2009-03-31, 01:10

havent seen it and I know that god never tests you beyond what you can handle.

by Quantum 75 2009-03-31, 03:02

And it seems you handled it the way you were expected to. You lost faith I take it?

by Jtull 2009-03-31, 03:27

everyone can go through valleys in your faith. I did at one point and now my faith is stronger than it was.

by Shemuel 2009-03-31, 08:39

Jtull wrote:havent seen it and I know that god never tests you beyond what you can handle.

What about Judas?

by **Thingy** 2009-03-31, 12:47

Jtull wrote:havent seen it and I know that god never tests you beyond what you can handle.

If he kills your family, he's alredy tested you too far. Ever heard about ''car crashes''?

by me naam is m 2009-03-31, 13:37

Thingy wrote:
Jtull wrote:havent seen it and I know that god never tests you beyond what you can handle.

If he kills your family, he's alredy tested you too far. Ever heard about ''car crashes''?

talk to DJ about that. and he is a JHW after all.

by **Thingy** 2009-03-31, 13:51

yeah, that's another thing i dont understand. I mean, if god gets your family killed in a horrible way, why do religious people keep praying to him and saying how wonderful he is and how much he loves them and the rest of mankind. If someone loves you, he's not supposed to kill your family

by Shemuel 2009-03-31, 15:54

I can't talk about that personally, unlike others I know. One person however has even converted after a tragic event.

It all depends whether you see God as directly controlling events, or as things passing without his influence, I suppose.

by Quantum 75 2009-03-31, 17:57

It also depends if you see a person's death as "They don't have to deal with life here anymore."

by Stryker 2009-03-31, 18:17

And it seems you handled it the way you were expected to. You lost faith I take it?

Lost is an understatement. After past periods of hate and sorrow I had arrived at the stage where I am at now. Instead of faith, I now have logic, and that is all i need.

by **Thingy** 2009-03-31, 18:25

Stryker wrote:
And it seems you handled it the way you were expected to. You lost faith I take it?

Lost is an understatement. After past periods of hate and sorrow I had arrived at the stage where I am at now. Instead of faith, I now have logic, and that is all i need.

I was lucky, my mom let me decide how i saw the world without any influence from someone else . So i picked not believing in any religion. It all sounds far too much like something made up to make the peasants life's more acceptable back in the ancient times and it managed to stay alive because lifes are still hard and death still really scary / meaningless for alot of people.

by Stryker 2009-03-31, 18:28

sounds far too much like something made up

Exactly!

by Quantum 75 2009-03-31, 18:45

Then that's your belief, I chose mine, and I'm sticking with it.

by Jtull 2009-03-31, 19:31

Stryker wrote:
And it seems you handled it the way you were expected to. You lost faith I take it?

Lost is an understatement. After past periods of hate and sorrow I had arrived at the stage where I am at now. Instead of faith, I now have logic, and that is all i need.

you will find I work quite the same. I used to work solely on science alone. now I use logic and math and all that stuff but also bring God into the equation. I mean lately I have been going through a time of depression ( due to a really rough spot) and have pulled my way out through praying for others and making others happy. I have been rewarded for that with my own happiness and people looking up to me. a couple of months ago I messed up big time and now I have resolved to try to be a man of god. unfortunately it is hard to be humble when you have had some of the greatest experiences with God. I mean seriously I have been prayed for and at the end I could not stand. and I have prayed for people and finished the prayer shaking because I felt soo close to god at that point. these last 7 months have being the best in my life because I have given up being others and just worked on being the best me I can be.

by Philly Homer 2009-03-31, 19:55

Stryker wrote:
sounds far too much like something made up

Exactly!

Cause, you know, people would willingly die for something made up, right? Out of the Twelve, only John died of natural death, as the rest died via execution from the Romans and Judas hanged himself.

If one was willing to stand on street corners, preaching to other people, that's bravery in and of itself. However, when imprisonment and execution are thrown in, that paints quite a different picture. Even with this persecution going on, they kept preaching the truth anyways. That's pretty much the irrefutable fact of this; why in the world would you die for something you know to be a lie?

by **Thingy** 2009-03-31, 20:01

errr... you do realise the bible is just a book... right? jesus could just as well be made up too. Or he could be a guy wo cracked because his life got too hard and went into his own fantasy world where everything is fair and balanced and that roman soldier that killed his wife or someone close to him would burn forever

But you heard him, no debating.

by FlashFreak22 2009-03-31, 20:03

They say they will delete any atheist posts here... so be quiet and let them argue... but I agree. Neutral

by Philly Homer 2009-03-31, 20:09

Thingy wrote:errr... you do realise the bible is just a book... right? jesus could just as well be made up too.

The Bible is accurate with its prophecies and such, as well as its historical accounts as to details of ancient Israeli history. It's all verifiable, because we have the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the only changes were of minor grammatical type.

The Bible is not "just a book." As to the rest of your post, I'm not even going to bother with that tripe.

And this thread REALLY isn't supposed to be an argument as to the validity of Christianity, is it now?

by Stryker 2009-03-31, 20:30

why in the world would you die for something you know to be a lie?

Well, the thing is the followers or preachers do not consider it to be a lie. They believed it to be the truth, similar to 60 some years ago when a race of people truly believed they were superior and set off conquering. (Trying to point out huge masses of people can also be misled) Lies are told to decieve people to make them think it is the truth. I'm not saying i dislike Christianity, actually i think it is (likely) the best lie that resulted in the greatest good the world has ever seen.

And about the Bible... all of the NT books were specifically picked to reflect the church's teaching, while the other Gospels were prohibited from being included. (Church could have been slightly biased). Verifiable... except for miracles i guess. But then there is confusion due to literal or contextual interpretation, because obviously Genesis accounts can not fully accurate. And yes your right it is not "just a book", its a collection of books included in one volume. Sorry for getting off topic.

by **Thingy** 2009-03-31, 20:48

To be honest, christianity is actually a great thing, but only now in modern times. a christian wont commit suicide because he things he will get rewarded if he gets out of whatever is depressing him, and a christian wont (well, some do but i think most dont) steal because he knows he'll go to hell if he does. But the medieval times was another thing... millions died and a whole culture got messed up because the europeans were fooled by the rich and important people.

Ok, that's it, i'm out of here

by Philly Homer 2009-03-31, 20:57

The "other" Gospels were omitted for good reason; as in contradicting the other Gospels and generally being... really weird, as there is no other polite way to say it. Taking the "Gospel" of Thomas for example, which isn't even an account of the life and ministry of Jesus, no major denomination of Christianity takes it as being canonical, as it is a product of Gnosticism.

Stryker wrote:(Trying to point out huge masses of people can also be misled)

But eventually the people would come to their senses, as deep investigation into any lie will cause the truth to be exposed. Again, I'm taking an example from the apostles here. They knew Jesus; his appearance, how he acted, etc. But they also were cowards. They left Jesus to be sentenced to death, but apparently something later happened that caused them to just go out and preach "madness" even though they would probably die from doing so.

You know what, I don't even know why I'm trying now. It's impossible to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt, as how do I prove that Jesus was resurrected and performed miracles? I can do no such thing, and thus why faith is in place.

Dang, I can write an entire rant if I want to... Now back on topic for real, and please don't try to argue with me, as it's impossible to prove either way.

by Jtull 2009-03-31, 22:08

alka can I ask you to specificly moderate this thread since you have the correct ability to see the posts that will only cause arguments.

and anyway I have actualy wondered if god is real and things like that. but I could never explane alot of the things that have happened in my life. and also I have looked at all the non creationist ideas on the universe and none have enough evidence for me to call them valid.

by FlashFreak22 2009-03-31, 22:14

So God created the universe(S)? If he controls us, why is there so much despair? Joan of Arc loved God and was rewarded by being burned because she was a "Heretic". Maybe their is another God that punishes us for worshipping a different divine being.

by Jtull 2009-03-31, 22:19

yea that would be satin although he is far from powerful compared to god. but god does let him do things to us. look at I think its job he lost everything and he went through "hell" but only because god let satin do that.

by Philly Homer 2009-03-31, 22:27

FlashFreak22 wrote:So God created the universe(S)? If he controls us, why is there so much despair? Joan of Arc loved God and was rewarded by being burned because she was a "Heretic". Maybe their is another God that punishes us for worshipping a different divine being.

1. Free will. God controls nothing about us personally, and there is despair in the world because of this free will.
2. Joan of Arc was burned because she was a woman, and heretic seemed like a good excuse, plus the time periods between 100-1700 were seriously messed up.
3. No there is not.

Please have a shred of knowledge of whatever the hell you are talking about before posting, please.

And Jtull, Satan does nothing to us, physically. He simply tempts us. Sin is simply us deciding to give into temptation.

by Jtull 2009-03-31, 22:33

umm... no I wont get into a debate about satin I dont really want to go down that road. but yes he does tempt us I think all of us have been tempted in all areas I think I could cross off every form of temptation now.

anyway I am in the process of trying to be a great role model and I am claiming what was spoken over me as mine ( it being said 3 times at different points in my life is quite enough) so I am brushing up on my bible verses and knowlage.

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