religion

Darkwing wrote:oh dear, here we go again. ok, as much as dj and i have our religious differences, he's right. God came before nature, and you said, Christianity came after paganism, true, but Christianity is the religion on the belief that God is God and etc. God existed before paganism though, and created paganism in a sense. See, before paganism, before Christianity, before religion even, there was God.

Earthdeath wrote:WTF???
what do you mean by the egyptian gods being bcked by demons hungry for worship?

Darkjedi wrote:The "old testament" was written in Hebrew, and the "new testament" was written in Greek.

Alkanosis wrote:

me naam is m wrote:

Darkjedi wrote:The "old testament" was written in Hebrew, and the "new testament" was written in Greek.

uh-uh. wrong the first Christians were former jews

And? If anything, that's just more proof that the NT was probably written in Greek. The common language throughout the Roman Empire, contrary to popular belief, is Koine Greek, not Latin. If people wanted to get anywhere in life, they would have to be educated in the language of the Empire.

And just to get this straight, the three original languages of the Bible are Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic. Most Jews of the time, including Jesus, spoke Aramaic, not Hebrew, people.

And DJ, don't be a condescending bum. I edited my post because it said literally nothing at all. I added the whole bunch of Biblical quotes, which you are conveniently ignoring. I changed nothing, I only added to it.

Ah... sorry. I thought you were just ignoring it with an excuse that you would do it later. Sorry about that. And most of the New Testament, as far as I know, was originally in Greek.

How was I supposed to take it then? I thought you were being condescending, honestly. =P

Darkwing wrote:but then again, he is God after all.

alkanosis wrote:Matthew 28:19: Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

alkanosis wrote:2 Corinthians 13:14: The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with all of you.

Alkanosis wrote:Isaiah 9:6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. (Specifically refers to Jesus, obviously. Now why would Jesus be referred to as "God" and "Father"? These were blasphemies punishable by death under the Law of Moses, unless it was true.)

John 8:58 I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am! (Now let's go back to Exodus. Who did God say he was to Moses? He says "I am who am." Coincidence? You decide.)

And God went on to speak to Moses and to say to him: “I am Jehovah.

alkanosis wrote:John 10:30: I and the Father are one. (Unless I have some sort of visual impairment, I think it says that Jesus = God.)

By these words Jesus did not say that he and his Father together made one God, coequal and coeternal. If you argue that he was saying this, as trinitarians do, then you must also believe that all of Christ’s followers become God: “Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us.” Just as Jesus is one with God, so are the followers of Jesus one with God. There is oneness in belief and purpose and work. The Bible speaks of one man planting and another watering to get an increase, and because both work with the same end in view it states: “Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one.” In this sense God and Jesus and Jesus’ followers are one.—John 17:20, 21; 1 Cor. 3:8.

alkanosis wrote:John 20:28: Thomas said to him, 'My Lord and my God!' (Same thing with the thing in Isaiah. Calling someone "God" or "Son of God" is a blasphemy and punishable by death, unless it was true. I think your Bible has this in it as well. Check it out.)

Matthew 28:17: When they saw Him, they worshiped Him; but some were doubtful. (Not allowed to worship anyone that is not God.)

Revelation 1:17–18: When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades."

“The First and the Last”

2 Nevertheless, our awe need not give way to morbid fear. Jesus reassured John, as the apostle next relates. “And he laid his right hand upon me and said: ‘Do not be fearful. I am the First and the Last, and the living one.’” (Revelation 1:17b, 18a) In Isaiah 44:6, Jehovah rightly describes his own position as the one and only almighty God*, saying: “I am the first and I am the last, and besides me there is no God.” When Jesus presents himself by the title “the First and the Last,” he is not claiming equality with Jehovah, the Grand Creator. He is using a title properly bestowed on him by God. In Isaiah, Jehovah was making a statement about His unique position as the true God. He is God eternal, and besides him there is indeed no God. (1 Timothy 1:17) In Revelation, Jesus is talking about his bestowed title, calling attention to his unique resurrection.

3 Jesus was indeed “the First” human to be resurrected to immortal spirit life. (Colossians 1:18) Moreover, he is “the Last” to be so resurrected by Jehovah personally. Thus, he becomes “the living one . . . living forever and ever.” He enjoys immortality. In this, he is like his immortal Father, who is called “the living God.” (Revelation 7:2; Psalm 42:2) For all others of humanity, Jesus himself is “the resurrection and the life.” (John 11:25) In harmony with this, he says to John: “I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Hades.” (Revelation 1:18b) Jehovah has given him the authority to resurrect the dead. That is why Jesus can say that he has the keys to unlock the gates for those bound by death and Hades (gravedom).—Compare Matthew 16:18.

In the original Hebrew at Isaiah 44:6, there is no definite article with the words “first” and “last,” whereas in Jesus’ description of himself in the original Greek at Revelation 1:17, the definite article is found. So, grammatically, Revelation 1:17 indicates a title, whereas Isaiah 44:6 describes Jehovah’s Godship.

Isaiah 44:6: This is what the LORD says—Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty: I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.

Titus 2:13: ...while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ

1 John 5:20: We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true—even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

Who Is “the True God and Life Everlasting”?

JEHOVAH, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, is the true God. He is the Creator, the one giving eternal life to those who love him. That is how many who read and believe the Bible would answer the question posed in the above title. Indeed, Jesus himself said: “This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.”—John 17:3.

Yet, many churchgoers give the expression a different meaning. The words in the title come from 1 John 5:20, which says, in part: “We are in union with the true one, by means of his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and life everlasting.”

Believers in the Trinity doctrine hold that the demonstrative pronoun “this” (hou′tos) refers to its immediate antecedent, Jesus Christ. They assert that Jesus is “the true God and life everlasting.” This interpretation, however, is in conflict with the rest of the Scriptures. And many authoritative scholars do not accept this Trinitarian view. Cambridge University scholar B. F. Westcott wrote: “The most natural reference [of the pronoun hou′tos] is to the subject not locally nearest but dominant in the mind of the apostle.” Thus, the apostle John had in mind Jesus’ Father. German theologian Erich Haupt wrote: “It has to be determined whether the [hou′tos] of the next proposition refers to the locally and immediately preceding subject . . . or to the more distant antecedent God. . . . A testimony to the one true God seems more in harmony with the final warning against idols than a demonstration of the divinity of Christ.”

Even A Grammatical Analysis of the Greek New Testament, published by Rome’s Pontifical Biblical Institute, states: “[Hou′tos]: as a climax to [verses] 18-20 the ref[erence] is almost certainly to God the real, the true, [in] opp[osition to] paganism (v. 21).”

Often hou′tos, generally translated “this” or “this one,” does not refer to the immediately preceding subject of a phrase. Other scriptures illustrate the point. At 2 John 7, the same apostle and penman of the first letter wrote: “Many deceivers have gone forth into the world, persons not confessing Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This [hou′tos′] is the deceiver and the antichrist.” Here the pronoun cannot refer to the closest antecedent—Jesus. Obviously, “this” refers to those who denied Jesus. They collectively are “the deceiver and the antichrist.”

In his Gospel, the apostle John wrote: “Andrew the brother of Simon Peter was one of the two that heard what John said and followed Jesus. First this one [hou′tos] found his own brother, Simon.” (John 1:40, 41) It is evident that “this one” refers, not to the last person mentioned, but to Andrew. At 1 John 2:22, the apostle uses the same pronoun in a similar way.

Luke makes similar use of the pronoun, as seen at Acts 4:10, 11: “In the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene, whom you impaled but whom God raised up from the dead, by this one does this man stand here sound in front of you. This [hou′tos′] is ‘the stone that was treated by you builders as of no account that has become the head of the corner.’” The pronoun “this” clearly does not refer to the man who was healed, though he is the one mentioned just before hou′tos. Certainly, “this” in verse 11 refers to Jesus Christ the Nazarene, who is the “cornerstone” on which the Christian congregation is founded.—Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:4-8.

Acts 7:18, 19 also illustrates the point: “There rose a different king over Egypt, who did not know of Joseph. This one [hou′tos] used statecraft against our race.” “This one” who oppressed the Jews was, not Joseph, but Pharaoh, the king of Egypt.

Such passages confirm the observation made by Greek scholar Daniel Wallace, who says that for Greek demonstratives, “what might be the nearest antecedent contextually might not be the nearest antecedent in the author’s mind.”

“The True One”

As the apostle John wrote, “the true One” is Jehovah, the Father of Jesus Christ. He is the only true God, the Creator. The apostle Paul acknowledged: “There is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are.” (1 Corinthians 8:6; Isaiah 42: Another reason that Jehovah is “the true one” referred to at 1 John 5:20 is that he is the Source of truth. The psalmist called Jehovah “the God of truth” because He is faithful in all He does and cannot lie. (Psalm 31:5; Exodus 34:6; Titus 1:2) Referring to his heavenly Father, the Son said: “Your word is truth.” And regarding his own teaching, Jesus stated: “What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me.”—John 7:16; 17:17.

Jehovah is also “life everlasting.” He is the Source of life, the One giving it as an undeserved gift through Christ. (Psalm 36:9; Romans 6:23) Significantly, the apostle Paul said that God is “the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him.” (Hebrews 11:6) God rewarded his Son by raising him from the dead, and the Father will give the reward of everlasting life to those who serve Him with all their heart.—Acts 26:23; 2 Corinthians 1:9.

Hence, what conclusion should we come to? That Jehovah, and no one else, is “the true God and life everlasting.” He alone is worthy to receive exclusive worship from those whom he created.—Revelation 4:11.

Darkwing wrote:Keep that in mind when I debate religion, we cannot completely comprehend the persona of God, we can only do our best at reading him. So, when we debate the Trinity, that is essentially what we are debating, the person of God, and the idea of a trinity makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, I understand and know that, but then again, he is God after all.

DJ wrote:There is no objection to Thomas’ referring to Jesus as a god.

DJ wrote:He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him.

DJ, when we're arguing theology, it's kinda useful to be using the same translation just to avoid inconsistencies. But hey, I'll try.

Note the italicized bit. There is no God other than God Himself. How can you call Jesus a god if he is not God Himself? The First Commandment - Thou shalt have no gods before Me. You cannot say that Jesus and God are two separate beings if you equate Jesus to a divine godlike status without Jesus actually being God.

On Matthew 28:17 - Really have no idea how to argue this one if you refuse to use the mainstream Protestant versions (KJV, NIV, etc.) because that's just what I used.

The Greek word here rendered “worship” is the word pros·ky·ne′o.
Strange as it may seem, this word is drawn from the Greek word for “dog,” kýōn, and hence means, properly, “to crouch,
crawl, fawn,” as a dog would at his master’s feet. Practically applied, therefore, the word basically means “to prostrate
oneself, to bow down, to do obeisance.” And in the lands of the Bible this was the proper attitude both of civil veneration and
homage and also of religious worship. This appears from the Bible, both in the Hebrew original text and in the Greek.

In the King James or Authorized Version of the Bible pros·ky·ne′o is, without exception, in its 60 occurences, rendered “worship.” However, in the New World Translation pros·ky·ne′o is rendered “do obeisance” and “worship.” For example, the magi from the east and King Herod said they wanted to “do obeisance to” (pros·ky·ne′o) the babe that had been born king of the Jews. “Do obeisance” is preferable here because neither the magi nor King Herod meant to worship the babe as God. (Matt. 2:2, 8, 11) Pros·ky·ne′o is properly rendered “do obeisance” at times, because often in the Greek Septuagint Version of the Bible the action of this verb is directed to men; for example, where the patriarch Abraham bowed down (pros·ky·ne′o) to the pagan natives of Canaanland, the Hittites, the sons of Heth. (Gen. 23:7, 12, LXX) Or, as when the patriarch Jacob and his wives and his children all bowed down repeatedly (pros·ky·ne′o) to his twin-brother Esau, whom Jehovah God said He hated. (Gen. 33:3, 6, 7, LXX) Or, as when Emperor Nebuchadnezzar bowed down (pros·ky·ne′o) to the prophet Daniel. (Dan. 2:46, LXX) Other examples, such as Revelation 3:9, could be given where pros·ky·ne′o is not properly rendered “worship” but should be rendered “bow down” or “do obeisance.”

In the New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures when this word pros·ky·ne′o is directed toward God, then it is properly rendered “worship,” as when Jesus answered the Tempter and said: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship [pros·ky·ne′o], and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” (Matt. 4:10, NW) To the Samaritan woman Jesus said: “The genuine worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for such kind to worship him. God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship [pros·ky·ne′o] with spirit and truth.” (John 4:23, 24, NW) In each of these cases pros·ky·ne′o might have been rendered “bow down” or “do obeisance,” but certainly when we bow down or do obeisance to Jehovah God we do not do it in the same sense as when Abraham, Jacob and others bowed down or did obeisance to men. At John 4:23, 24, above, even Dr. Young’s literal translation of the Bible changes from “bow down” to “worship.” So the New World Translation is no more inconsistent than Dr. Young’s literal Bible translation. Bowing to men does not necessarily mean worship.

In the New World Translation we note that when this Greek verb pros·ky·ne′o is applied to Jesus as a man on earth or materializing as a man after his resurrection, it is translated “do obeisance.” However, when referring to the glorified Jesus in the invisible heavens in the presence of the holy angels, the New World Translation makes a change and renders pros·ky·ne′o as applied to him by the English word “worship.” (Heb. 1:6) This is properly and consistently done. This Greek verb occurs only twice in the book of Hebrews, here at Hebrews 1:6 and at Hebrews 11:21 where Jacob is described as worshiping Jehovah God: “By faith Jacob, when about to die, blessed each of the sons of Joseph and worshiped [pros·ky·ne′o] leaning upon the top of his staff.” (NW; referring to Genesis 47:31, where the LXX also uses pros·ky·ne′o) So in the book of Hebrews pros·ky·ne′o is both times rendered “worship” and the angels of God are instructed to “worship” the glorified Jesus. Why is this? Because Jesus has been made so much higher than the angels, even higher than he was before he became a man on earth. (Phil. 2:5-11) It is the command of Jehovah God that they do this toward his Son. What does this mean? This, that even the angels are to render their worship of Jehovah God through Jesus Christ, whom Jehovah God has made the Head of his universal organization. That is why it is stated on page 85 of the book “Make Sure of All Things”, column 1: “Christ to Be Worshiped as a Glorious Spirit, Victorious over Death on the Torture Stake,” with three scriptures accompanying to prove that he is now a glorified spirit, and now no more flesh.

It is because the glorified Jesus Christ acts as the appointed representative of Jehovah God that worship must go to God through him, even on the part of the angels. This explains why Psalm 97:7 and Deuteronomy 32:43, which, according to their context, evidently refer to Jehovah God, are applied by the writer of Hebrews to Jehovah’s Son Jesus Christ. The Son of God is Jehovah’s High Priest, hence subordinate to Jehovah God; but as High Priest according to the likeness of Melchizedek the glorified Jesus Christ leads all creation in the worship of Jehovah God. Hence worship of all creation must go to the one living and true God Jehovah through him. In the present-time fulfillment of Deuteronomy 32:43 and Psalm 97:7, the High Priest Jesus Christ acts as the direct representative for his Father Jehovah and, therefore, Hebrews 1:6 properly involves Jesus Christ glorified in the application of these scriptures. Well, then, since the angels are commanded to worship the glorified Jesus at his second coming, should not we, who, as humans, are so much less than angels, likewise worship him? In answer we say, We must render to him what God’s Word says we must.

At Revelation 19:10 and 22:9 the angel whom the glorified Jesus sent to the apostle John said to John: “Worship [pros·ky·ne′o] God,” meaning Jehovah God. Jesus’ angel (Rev. 1:1, 2; 22:16) told John, a man on earth, to worship, not Jesus, but God, Jehovah God the Father of Jesus. That is the One whom Jehovah’s witnesses worship. But we remember that such worship has to be rendered to Jehovah God through his High Priest Jesus Christ. For this reason it is that Jehovah’s witnesses follow the instruction of Philippians 2:10, 11: “So that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven [angels] and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly confess that Jesus Christ is Lord [not the Almighty God, but Lord] to the glory of God the Father.” (NW) Jehovah’s witnesses “honor the Son just as they honor the Father,” for, “he that does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent him.” (John 5:23, NW) Jehovah’s witnesses give to Jesus all the honor, respect, consideration, obedience, imitation, love and loyalty that Jehovah God calls upon them to render to his Son Jesus Christ. In Jesus’ name they render their prayers and worship to Jehovah God. And the angels of heaven obey the command of God and “worship” his Son only as their worship of the Son is related to the worship of his Father Jehovah God. But, keeping things in their relative positions, angels and Jehovah’s witnesses worship Jehovah God as the one Almighty God, uncreated, unbegotten, “from everlasting to everlasting.”—Ps. 90:2.

Wow, that's a real bastardization of what the Bible really says in my opinion, but again, different translations. Useless to argue here as we both are sticking by our own translations...